Jump, Little Children — Cathedrals
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Total ratings: 1872
Length: 3:51
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In the shadows of tall buildings
Of fallen angels on the ceilings
Oily feathers in bronze and concrete
Faded colors, pieces left incomplete
The line moves slowly past the electric fence
Across the borders between continents
In the cathedrals of New York and Rome
There is a feeling that you should just go home
And spend a lifetime finding out just where that is
In the shadows of tall buildings
The architecture is slowly peeling
Marble statues and glass dividers
Someone is watching all of the outsiders
The line moves slowly through the numbered gate
Past the mosaic of the head of state
(chorus)
In the shadows of tall buildings
Of open arches endlessly kneeling
Sonic landscapes echoing vistas
Someone is listening from a safe distance
The line moves slowly into a fading light
A final moment in the dead of night
(chorus)
Of fallen angels on the ceilings
Oily feathers in bronze and concrete
Faded colors, pieces left incomplete
The line moves slowly past the electric fence
Across the borders between continents
In the cathedrals of New York and Rome
There is a feeling that you should just go home
And spend a lifetime finding out just where that is
In the shadows of tall buildings
The architecture is slowly peeling
Marble statues and glass dividers
Someone is watching all of the outsiders
The line moves slowly through the numbered gate
Past the mosaic of the head of state
(chorus)
In the shadows of tall buildings
Of open arches endlessly kneeling
Sonic landscapes echoing vistas
Someone is listening from a safe distance
The line moves slowly into a fading light
A final moment in the dead of night
(chorus)
Comments (242)add comment
my heart breaks each time i hear this for some reason. ...sniff...sniff 
Here's a song that didn't age that well: Median house price in Vancouver is now $2.5 mil
Before jumping to flame the arts & crafts-school kids and their precious haunting songs, try singing along to this one. Hard AF work!
First time i heard this song gave it an 8
Really rather lovely and moving.
Just read the band name as "lump little children"...
This is way better than 6.5.......7 fur Sure!
Moody Blues forgotten song
pinem wrote:
They may not be well known, but your comparison is shallow and unwarranted.
Beautiful song; it's an obscure group accidentally putting together a masterpiece; much like the blind squirrel finding his nuts.
They may not be well known, but your comparison is shallow and unwarranted.
This is one of those songs that when you hear it at work, you don't leave the room or take any phone calls, so you can just listen.
Grayson wrote:
At least you got through half the day before hearing this song. FIRST ONE OF THE DAY FOR ME! It can only get better from here, right?
Gawd with this song. It really should win some kinda award for Saddest Ever. You're having a perfectly pleasant day in the cube, getting stuff done, being productive, thinking about those new awesome little pickled things they put on the salad bar down in the cafeteria because it's getting on lunch time, then this song comes on RP and you're like in the restroom sobbing latched into the last stall at the end. Just. Can't. With. It.
At least you got through half the day before hearing this song. FIRST ONE OF THE DAY FOR ME! It can only get better from here, right?
They’ve gone home in Rome anyway.
auckland wrote:
I fully agree. And I have a lot of compassion with anybody who is carrying the weight of the world. But - here's the important but - that does not imply that I may be bothered with whatever whimsical musical expression people come about when they feel the pain. Maybe the singer should give me a buzz and talk it over rather than to bore innocent RP listeners.
Should all songwriters really be concerned that you "may be bothered with whatever whimsical musical expression" they "come about when they feel the pain"?
I fully agree. And I have a lot of compassion with anybody who is carrying the weight of the world. But - here's the important but - that does not imply that I may be bothered with whatever whimsical musical expression people come about when they feel the pain. Maybe the singer should give me a buzz and talk it over rather than to bore innocent RP listeners.
Should all songwriters really be concerned that you "may be bothered with whatever whimsical musical expression" they "come about when they feel the pain"?
Marr wrote:
Dunno why, but every time I first start to hear this song I think it is some forgotten gem from the 60s.
Same here!Gawd with this song. It really should win some kinda award for Saddest Ever. You're having a perfectly pleasant day in the cube, getting stuff done, being productive, thinking about those new awesome little pickled things they put on the salad bar down in the cafeteria because it's getting on lunch time, then this song comes on RP and you're like in the restroom sobbing latched into the last stall at the end. Just. Can't. With. It.
Thanks again RP! Knew the song, but not who, when or why
Dunno why, but every time I first start to hear this song I think it is some forgotten gem from the 60s.
Proclivities wrote:
"...I had some dreams there were clowns in my coffee..."
"There's a hole in my head that can only be filled by glue"
"...I had some dreams there were clowns in my coffee..."
"There's a hole in my head that can only be filled by glue"
WAAAAY too much Radiohead. PSD!
I hear a slight hint of Chris De Burgh...
This song should not be played during the holidays. It's a total depressing bummer even on a good day.
Not sure if its been commented on here, but these guys have recently reunited after a long hiatus and are presently out on tour.
jmsmy wrote:
It's a good one.
I always thought this song was a Leonard Cohan cover.
It's an original
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_(Jump,_Little_Children_album)
I gotta get that CD.
It's an original
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_(Jump,_Little_Children_album)
I gotta get that CD.
It's a good one.
I always thought this song was a Leonard Cohan cover.
It's an original
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_(Jump,_Little_Children_album)
I gotta get that CD.
It's an original
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_(Jump,_Little_Children_album)
I gotta get that CD.
Proclivities wrote:
"...I had some dreams there were clowns in my coffee..."
"Slow walkin' Walter. If I were in disguise..."
"...I had some dreams there were clowns in my coffee..."
"Slow walkin' Walter. If I were in disguise..."
I can just see pajama boy in his onesie sipping hot cocoa while listening to this.
zoopmama wrote:
Reminds me of Moody Blues..
Like it lots. Reminds me of Guillemots.
Reminds me of Moody Blues..
i needed this today. thanks, bill! 
Nice
Good lyrics, an excellent hook, nicely arranged for orchestra. Sorry others don't see the value in this tune. Gave it a 7
Proclivities wrote:
"...I had some dreams there were clowns in my coffee..."
"...I had some dreams there were clowns in my coffee..."
"No I never ever went to sphincter pass."
GarageDragon wrote:
S'cuse me while I kiss this guy.
I think I'm in love, cuz I can't get it up.
S'cuse me while I kiss this guy.
I think I'm in love, cuz I can't get it up.
Calm, nice song, but not for breakfast... More rock & roll please
rdo wrote:
I do not play an instrument, and I am not getting paid to write this, but I like this song. Am I allowed to say that here?
Yeah, I guess we will collectively allow this. Once. I fail to understand the revulsion that this song seems to elicit in quite a lot of the listeners (at least those who take the time to let everyone else know). I will admit that its apparent theological message escapes me, but like so much music that has a religious theme (or even just brushes it), it's the music that sticks. And, no: this is not Barry Manilow-like!The folks that don't like this song are a pretty vocal minority. Loved this album.
Barf. GarageDragon wrote:
S'cuse me while I kiss this guy.
"...I had some dreams there were clowns in my coffee..."
S'cuse me while I kiss this guy.
"...I had some dreams there were clowns in my coffee..."
UGH!!!!!!!!!!! Think I need to hit myself with a hammer!!!Really enjoy this beautiful, whiney song. Thanks RP.
Nope. For me, that is.
I'm a fan of Joan Osborne's version.
really awful!
lovely stuff
Hogtownmike wrote:
Every time you go away, you take a piece of meat with you...
S'cuse me while I kiss this guy.
Every time you go away, you take a piece of meat with you...
S'cuse me while I kiss this guy.
Jannne wrote:
Not quite.
No, no, no - too Barry Manilow 
Not quite.
I hear the first guitar strums and crank it!
Pretty sounding. Makes me happy. I'll go buy it. 
No, no, no - too Barry Manilow
I do not play an instrument, and I am not getting paid to write this, but I like this song. Am I allowed to say that here?
Proclivities wrote:
There just aren't enough songs about Leslie Nielsen. Donuts make my brown eyes blue.
Every time you go away, you take a piece of meat with you...
There just aren't enough songs about Leslie Nielsen. Donuts make my brown eyes blue.
Every time you go away, you take a piece of meat with you...
Love the violins....
psg wrote:
There just aren't enough songs about Leslie Nielsen. Donuts make my brown eyes blue.
At one point I thought he sang something about Leslie Nielsen and had to look up the lyrics. It was actually "endlessly kneeling". Surely, I was disappointed.
There just aren't enough songs about Leslie Nielsen. Donuts make my brown eyes blue.
Beautiful song; it's an obscure group accidentally putting together a masterpiece; much like the blind squirrel finding his nuts.
liking it
Like it lots. Reminds me of Guillemots.
This song makes my heart soar! It has the same effect as Smashing Pumpkin's "Disarm" but with way better vocals.
blaeessssh
My god...why so much straining and whining? And yet you let Dylan blow through your mind!!! idiot_wind wrote:
WTF is this?
My god...why so much straining and whining?
Plat some RnR to cleanse our palette.
My god...why so much straining and whining?
Plat some RnR to cleanse our palette.
WTF is this?
My god...why so much straining and whining?
Plat some RnR to cleanse our palette.
My god...why so much straining and whining?
Plat some RnR to cleanse our palette.
wintergaard wrote:
Yes I really like Joan Osborne's version. I'd over heard once and had to research it because it so capture me. This version just simply does nothing for me other than hope it passes soon.
I like the Joan Osborne version very much, but the vocal on the JLC version sounds so vulnerable, like the lyrics.
Yes I really like Joan Osborne's version. I'd over heard once and had to research it because it so capture me. This version just simply does nothing for me other than hope it passes soon.
I like the Joan Osborne version very much, but the vocal on the JLC version sounds so vulnerable, like the lyrics.
iTuner wrote:
Just like iTunes.
Utter shite.
Just like iTunes.
psg wrote:
I bet not as disappointed as I was when I found out there was NOT a "bathroom on the right".
At one point I thought he sang something about Leslie Nielsen and had to look up the lyrics. It was actually "endlessly kneeling". Surely, I was disappointed.
I bet not as disappointed as I was when I found out there was NOT a "bathroom on the right".
This becomes my week-long earworm every time I hear it.
"In the cathedrals of New York and Rome, There is a feeling that you should just go home, And spend a lifetime finding out just where that is..."
"In the cathedrals of New York and Rome, There is a feeling that you should just go home, And spend a lifetime finding out just where that is..."
At one point I thought he sang something about Leslie Nielsen and had to look up the lyrics. It was actually "endlessly kneeling". Surely, I was disappointed.
auckland wrote:
I fully agree. And I have a lot of compassion with anybody who is carrying the weight of the world. But - here's the important but - that does not imply that I may be bothered with whatever whimsical musical expression people come about when they feel the pain. Maybe the singer should give me a buzz and talk it over rather than to bore innocent RP listeners.
Perhaps you could not share your superior views with those of us who are mere morons. We find it boring and offensive. Thank you.
I fully agree. And I have a lot of compassion with anybody who is carrying the weight of the world. But - here's the important but - that does not imply that I may be bothered with whatever whimsical musical expression people come about when they feel the pain. Maybe the singer should give me a buzz and talk it over rather than to bore innocent RP listeners.
Perhaps you could not share your superior views with those of us who are mere morons. We find it boring and offensive. Thank you.
I had almost forgot how much the '90s sucked.
i love this. makes me stop everytime.
Utter shite.
Hannio wrote:
Yeah, quite a bit too saccharine for me, too.
It is a little melodramatic, but not enough to make me change the station. It's a nice melody, really, but not a tune I'd like to hear too often. It sort of reminds me of "Massachusetts" or some other early tune by The Bee Gees.
Yeah, quite a bit too saccharine for me, too.
It is a little melodramatic, but not enough to make me change the station. It's a nice melody, really, but not a tune I'd like to hear too often. It sort of reminds me of "Massachusetts" or some other early tune by The Bee Gees.
nate917 wrote:
And that is one reason why I like Joan Osborne's cover even better. She adds a little spine to it. You actually get the indictment of religion ("someone is listening from a safe distance").
Yes I really like Joan Osborne's version. I'd over heard once and had to research it because it so capture me. This version just simply does nothing for me other than hope it passes soon.
And that is one reason why I like Joan Osborne's cover even better. She adds a little spine to it. You actually get the indictment of religion ("someone is listening from a safe distance").
Yes I really like Joan Osborne's version. I'd over heard once and had to research it because it so capture me. This version just simply does nothing for me other than hope it passes soon.
spacemoose wrote:
I find it disturbing that people exist who aren't suffering under the pain of the whole world. The world is full of pain and suffering. What conditioning were you exposed to that you don't let that suffering touch you? Compassion is a virtue sir.
I fully agree. And I have a lot of compassion with anybody who is carrying the weight of the world. But - here's the important but - that does not imply that I may be bothered with whatever whimsical musical expression people come about when they feel the pain. Maybe the singer should give me a buzz and talk it over rather than to bore innocent RP listeners.
I find it disturbing that people exist who aren't suffering under the pain of the whole world. The world is full of pain and suffering. What conditioning were you exposed to that you don't let that suffering touch you? Compassion is a virtue sir.
I fully agree. And I have a lot of compassion with anybody who is carrying the weight of the world. But - here's the important but - that does not imply that I may be bothered with whatever whimsical musical expression people come about when they feel the pain. Maybe the singer should give me a buzz and talk it over rather than to bore innocent RP listeners.
GolfRomeo wrote:
Yes, I am from South Carolina too, but not a fan of JLJ. However, I am a huuuge fan of Danielle Howle and I did try to get some of her tunes uploaded, they made it to review did not do well and got axed.
Oh well, I tried to get her some national exposure anyway.
I take credit for uploading Jump for Bill the very first time, way back in the day. While Cathedrals gets lots of airplay, and it grows on you over time, it is IMO one of their weakest songs. They were fantastic. I did run into Jonathan Gray a couple weeks ago at a charity concert at Awendaw Green (www.awendawgreen.com) and we ate oysters together and chatted. He has kids and is playing in a variety of bands in Charleston. At the concert, he played bass for Blind Melon and backed a local "all star" band fronted by Danielle Howle. It was an amazing night.
gandalfbmg wrote:
gandalfbmg wrote:
I absolutely love this one.
Yes, I am from South Carolina too, but not a fan of JLJ. However, I am a huuuge fan of Danielle Howle and I did try to get some of her tunes uploaded, they made it to review did not do well and got axed.
Oh well, I tried to get her some national exposure anyway. Hannio wrote:
Yeah, quite a bit too saccharine for me, too.
And that is one reason why I like Joan Osborne's cover even better. She adds a little spine to it. You actually get the indictment of religion ("someone is listening from a safe distance").
Yeah, quite a bit too saccharine for me, too.
And that is one reason why I like Joan Osborne's cover even better. She adds a little spine to it. You actually get the indictment of religion ("someone is listening from a safe distance").
lsfeder wrote:
Yea, I am done with it too. They are a local band so I have been hearing it a lot longer than most here.
Every time this song comes on I find myself muting it....
Yea, I am done with it too. They are a local band so I have been hearing it a lot longer than most here.
Beautiful and poignant.
Every time this song comes on I find myself muting it....
Businessgypsy wrote:
from the ratings and comments(most of them) there seems to be too much Kool Aid in the coffee. :)
As a Dutch commenter once said (about a song that eludes memory), "too much sugar in the coffee".
from the ratings and comments(most of them) there seems to be too much Kool Aid in the coffee. :)
LOVE this song. This makes up for playing the Cranberries. Thanks!
Businessgypsy wrote:
Yeah, quite a bit too saccharine for me, too.
As a Dutch commenter once said (about a song that eludes memory), "too much sugar in the coffee".
Yeah, quite a bit too saccharine for me, too.
auckland wrote:
I find it disturbing that people exist who aren't suffering under the pain of the whole world. The world is full of pain and suffering. What conditioning were you exposed to that you don't let that suffering touch you? Compassion is a virtue sir.
This tune has bored me to death over breakfast - a meaningless series of chords accompanied by a singer who is obviously suffering under the pain of the whole world
I find it disturbing that people exist who aren't suffering under the pain of the whole world. The world is full of pain and suffering. What conditioning were you exposed to that you don't let that suffering touch you? Compassion is a virtue sir.
Jelani wrote:
Yeah, I love droning monochromatic dirges.
Droning monochromatic dirge.
Yeah, I love droning monochromatic dirges.
Droning monochromatic dirge.
Yay, Jump Little Children! I used to follow that band around in college. When I say "follow around" I mean literally. Sleeping in parking lots, getting coffee for Jay. Fun to hear them on RP in my now regular life.
I take credit for uploading Jump for Bill the very first time, way back in the day. While Cathedrals gets lots of airplay, and it grows on you over time, it is IMO one of their weakest songs. They were fantastic. I did run into Jonathan Gray a couple weeks ago at a charity concert at Awendaw Green (www.awendawgreen.com) and we ate oysters together and chatted. He has kids and is playing in a variety of bands in Charleston. At the concert, he played bass for Blind Melon and backed a local "all star" band fronted by Danielle Howle. It was an amazing night.
gandalfbmg wrote:
gandalfbmg wrote:
I absolutely love this one.
I absolutely love this one.
Cynaera wrote:
Yes, that's it exactly. Thanks.
C'mere, let me show you my upright bass...
I just love this song. It's melancholy, but it's so evocative and beautiful - and that upright bass... (Okay. I am a slut for upright bass.) This song is not something to listen to if you want to, say, jack up your heart rate and burn calories. It's more geared for a mellow, rainy day with a fire in the fireplace, something cinnamon-y baking in the oven, and everyone tucked in and accounted for. And don't listen to the words, because that will put a whole different slant on the song and change the ambiance. 
Yes, that's it exactly. Thanks.
C'mere, let me show you my upright bass...
Jelani wrote:
Yes, it is one of those songs the first couple of times you hear it you may actually like or at least think is OK, but the more and more you hear it.......
One of the worst songs I've ever heard.
Yes, it is one of those songs the first couple of times you hear it you may actually like or at least think is OK, but the more and more you hear it.......
revsully wrote:
I've only heard the Joan Osborne cover, who else does it?
Why does everybody have to cover this song?
I've only heard the Joan Osborne cover, who else does it?
One of the worst songs I've ever heard.
Beautiful.
Nice melody and chords.
oh hell, i rate everything that i really like an 8. is that some sort of sickness? what's wrong with 7 or 9?
One of the few reasons I liked living in SC, this band. Brilliant bunch of musicians.
Cynaera wrote:
I agree. Lovely song, however, IF you can understand the lyrics anyway. I couldn't. Which didn't make me like it any less, — because it sounds lovely in the middle of the night when you can't sleep. I thought I must be getting old, when I can't understand lyrics anymore. Is it just me? Or is it just fashionable to slur the words?
I just love this song. It's melancholy, but it's so evocative and beautiful - and that upright bass... (Okay. I am a slut for upright bass.) This song is not something to listen to if you want to, say, jack up your heart rate and burn calories. It's more geared for a mellow, rainy day with a fire in the fireplace, something cinnamon-y baking in the oven, and everyone tucked in and accounted for. And don't listen to the words, because that will put a whole different slant on the song and change the ambiance.
I agree. Lovely song, however, IF you can understand the lyrics anyway. I couldn't. Which didn't make me like it any less, — because it sounds lovely in the middle of the night when you can't sleep. I thought I must be getting old, when I can't understand lyrics anymore. Is it just me? Or is it just fashionable to slur the words?
I just love this song. It's melancholy, but it's so evocative and beautiful - and that upright bass... (Okay. I am a slut for upright bass.) This song is not something to listen to if you want to, say, jack up your heart rate and burn calories. It's more geared for a mellow, rainy day with a fire in the fireplace, something cinnamon-y baking in the oven, and everyone tucked in and accounted for. And don't listen to the words, because that will put a whole different slant on the song and change the ambiance.
As a Dutch commenter once said (about a song that eludes memory), "too much sugar in the coffee".
There's a live version of this that is simply superb.
I think this is a great song.
auckland wrote:
How can a progression of chords have meaning or not? They may or may not elicit an emotional reaction or some kind of association with a memory, depending on your tastes, programming, or experiences. But unless you're encoding something into the chords I don't get what you mean... unless you're just trying to be pretentious.
A buddy of mine used to make practice songs by spelling words with the chords: dead dad for example, but if you stick to that scheme your music, and your messages are going to be pretty damned limited. Maybe that's why the song has lyrics?
This tune has bored me to death over breakfast - a meaningless series of chords accompanied by a singer who is obviously suffering under the pain of the whole world
How can a progression of chords have meaning or not? They may or may not elicit an emotional reaction or some kind of association with a memory, depending on your tastes, programming, or experiences. But unless you're encoding something into the chords I don't get what you mean... unless you're just trying to be pretentious.
A buddy of mine used to make practice songs by spelling words with the chords: dead dad for example, but if you stick to that scheme your music, and your messages are going to be pretty damned limited. Maybe that's why the song has lyrics?
This tune has bored me to death over breakfast - a meaningless series of chords accompanied by a singer who is obviously suffering under the pain of the whole world
lawman wrote:
That's really funny! I giggled ...may have snorted a little.
What is it with me?! I just went to rate this 7 .. and found I'd already rated it 3 .
Just goes to show (something).
Just goes to show (something).
That's really funny! I giggled ...may have snorted a little.
rachlan wrote:
wow, they are from outer mongolia!
I know right! They don't even do throat singing!
wow, they are from outer mongolia!
I know right! They don't even do throat singing!
Another song that has overstayed it's welcome..............
What is it with me?! I just went to rate this 7 .. and found I'd already rated it 3
Just goes to show (something).
Just goes to show (something).
sirdroseph wrote:
Yes, this is the original and even though they are a hometown band, I don't particularly like this song anymore.
wow, they are from outer mongolia!
Yes, this is the original and even though they are a hometown band, I don't particularly like this song anymore.
wow, they are from outer mongolia!
jlind wrote:
Yes, this is the original and even though they are a hometown band, I don't particularly like this song anymore.
Well this would be the original (I think)
Yes, this is the original and even though they are a hometown band, I don't particularly like this song anymore.
revsully wrote:
Why does everybody have to cover this song?
Well this would be the original (I think) RadioDoc wrote:
Good question. It gets played here as much as Stairway to Heaven on a Clear Channel Classic Rocker.
Even when u made this comment it got played like once a week, I don't think thats extreeme. Bill does a pretty job of not repeating any song over the same day, which is better than any clear channel station can say.
Good question. It gets played here as much as Stairway to Heaven on a Clear Channel Classic Rocker.
Even when u made this comment it got played like once a week, I don't think thats extreeme. Bill does a pretty job of not repeating any song over the same day, which is better than any clear channel station can say.
RadioDoc wrote:
Good question. It gets played here as much as Stairway to Heaven on a Clear Channel Classic Rocker.
You say that as if the CC station is the one out of balance.
Good question. It gets played here as much as Stairway to Heaven on a Clear Channel Classic Rocker.
You say that as if the CC station is the one out of balance.
I think the Joan Osborne cover uses more reverb on the vocals, which I rather like because it sounds more like, well, a cathedral.
"Someone is listening from a safe distance."
If there is a more withering indictment of God in modern music, I can't think of it. I bumped the rating just for the great lyrics.
"Someone is listening from a safe distance."
If there is a more withering indictment of God in modern music, I can't think of it. I bumped the rating just for the great lyrics.
Been thinking about this song since you played Remy Zero's "Fair." Thanks for putting a smile on my face in the middle of the work day!
Why does everybody have to cover this song?
yikes. the violins and that whiney voice are quite unlikeable together.
MsJudi wrote:
One of my many favorite JLC lines. This song got a lot of loving play during college.
This evocative song is just one of the many that make JLC my all-time favorite band. Why, oh why did you guys have to shut down just months before I discovered you?
Came here expecting to see that I had not yet rated this song and instead saw that I had given it a 5. A 5? I bumped it to an 8.
"...there is a feeling that you should just go home, and spend a lifetime finding out just where that is"
"...there is a feeling that you should just go home, and spend a lifetime finding out just where that is"
One of my many favorite JLC lines. This song got a lot of loving play during college.
This evocative song is just one of the many that make JLC my all-time favorite band. Why, oh why did you guys have to shut down just months before I discovered you?
RadioDoc wrote:
Good question. It gets played here as much as Stairway to Heaven on a Clear Channel Classic Rocker.
FUNNY!
Good question. It gets played here as much as Stairway to Heaven on a Clear Channel Classic Rocker.
FUNNY!
99 wrote:
Good question. It gets played here as much as Stairway to Heaven on a Clear Channel Classic Rocker.
Holy crap! Jump Little Children on RP. How did I miss this?
Good question. It gets played here as much as Stairway to Heaven on a Clear Channel Classic Rocker.
Holy crap! Jump Little Children on RP. How did I miss this?